Transformez votre passe-temps en une entreprise en plein essor | Investissement immobilier

J: Bienvenue sur le podcast BiggerPockets Business.

Carol: Ceci est le spectacle n ° 1.

«Il y a eu différentes phases de cette activité. Il est passé du site de passe-temps aux affaires de style de vie. Maintenant, remarquez, je n'avais pas d'entreprise de style de vie parce que je n'avais pas de vie. Et puis, j'ai embauché mon premier employé et c'est devenu une véritable entreprise. Et puis la dernière phase a été celle où j’ai fait appel à un partenaire et cette entreprise était désormais en mode fusée ».

Bienvenue dans un MBA du monde réel de la School of Hard-Knocks, où les entrepreneurs révèlent ce qu'il faut vraiment pour réussir. Que vous soyez déjà en affaires ou que vous y alliez, ce spectacle est pour vous. C'est BiggerPockets Business.

J: Salut tout le monde. Je suis Jay Scott. Je suis votre coanimatrice du podcast BiggerPockets Business et je suis accompagnée de mon autre coanimatrice, ma charmante, incroyable, belle, intelligente et géniale femme, Mme Carol Scott.

Carol: Sensationnel. Vous êtes comme – qu'est-ce que vous cherchez là-bas, chérie? Voulez-vous quelque chose plus tard?

J: Non, on m'a dit que j'étais censé être gentil avec vous dans la série.

Carol: Oh, c’est vraiment une très bonne idée, producteurs. Bon appel à cela. En tout cas, je passe une très bonne journée, ma chérie, comment se passe ta journée?

J: Je me débrouille bien. Que se passe-t-il dans votre vie ou dans nos vies?

Carol: Notre vie est ridiculement bonne en ce moment. Je ne veux pas être vantard, mais je dois vous dire, chérie, depuis 16 ans que nous nous connaissons, il y a eu quelques fois qui sont comme ça où il y a tellement, tellement de bons tout se passe en même temps.

Nous nous préparons à vendre la maison. Nous faisons un grand déménagement en Floride. Nous démarrons une autre entreprise. Nous commençons ce podcast. C’est tellement bon en même temps. Je ne peux pas mentir, c’est un peu accablant, mais c’est une très bonne transition et c’est un très bon moment en ce moment.

J: Je suis tout à fait d’accord, et en parlant de transition, nous avons un très bon premier épisode aujourd’hui. Nous avons un gars nommé Josh Dorkin. Beaucoup d’entre vous le connaissent peut-être, et c’est un homme qui traverse de nombreuses transitions dans sa vie, tant sur le plan personnel que professionnel. Pour ceux qui ne connaissent pas Josh, Josh est le fondateur de BiggerPockets.com.

BiggerPockets est la première ressource d’investissement en ligne pour les investisseurs immobiliers et les investissements immobiliers. Josh a élargi BiggerPockets à une communauté de près de 1,5 million de personnes au cours des 15 dernières années.

Mais, quand Josh a commencé, BiggerPockets n’était qu’une idée en tête. Il a commencé comme de nombreux propriétaires d'entreprise, essayant de trouver comment développer son activité, comment développer son activité, comment développer sa communauté, et il est ici aujourd'hui pour nous parler de toutes les luttes, de toutes les épreuves, de toutes les tribulations qu'il a vécues. expérimenté en essayant de transformer BiggerPockets en ce qu’il est aujourd’hui, une entreprise qui compte plus de 30 employés, des dizaines d’entrepreneurs.

Je suis donc vraiment intéressé à explorer ce spectacle avec lui et à apprendre comment BiggerPockets a commencé. Honnêtement, l’histoire ressemble beaucoup à la façon dont beaucoup d’entreprises ont démarré, alors je pense que nos auditeurs vont nous en enlever beaucoup.

Carol: Donc, voici les choses spécifiques que vous allez apprendre dans cette émission. Josh va donc nous dire ce qui a réellement suscité cette idée pour BiggerPockets. Il va nous donner de très bons conseils pour créer une communauté en ligne. Donc, si vous construisez une communauté en ligne, il vous expliquera exactement comment cela fonctionne. Voici quelque chose à garder à l’esprit. Cela ne se produit pas du jour au lendemain.

Maintenant, il va aussi nous dire comment il a fait un grand pas en arrière de la compagnie, mais cela l’a finalement conduit à le faire grandir d’une manière qu’il n’avait jamais imaginée possible, n’est-ce pas? Et une chose que vous allez vraiment aimer: assurez-vous de rester jusqu'à la fin, car le mec cite Jay-Z. Oui, en réalité, je ne peux pas inventer ce genre de choses. Donc, assurez-vous d'écouter tout au long. Vous allez adorer.

J: Bien, bien avant de commencer notre épisode avec Josh, entendons un mot rapide de notre sponsor.

Dans le podcast immobilier BiggerPockets Real Estate, ils ont fait toute une émission sur les «Trois grands obstacles pour les nouveaux investisseurs»: ne pas avoir assez de temps, ne pas avoir assez de transactions et ne pas avoir assez d'argent. Eh bien, laissez-moi vous dire que les gens de Rent to Retirement l’ont compris. Ils offrent des propriétés clés en main complètes sur des marchés où les chiffres ont un sens. Les propriétés de location à la retraite, elles sont déjà rénovées, elles sont louées, elles les gèrent pour vous. Ils vous permettent d’investir en toute confiance lorsque vous êtes en panne. Nous parlons donc de marchés comme Birmingham, Memphis, Cincinnati. Vous pouvez même choisir entre des investissements unifamiliaux ou multifamiliaux. Et obtenez ceci, Rent to Retirement travaille avec un réseau de prêteurs afin qu'ils puissent vous aider avec tous les types de financement, y compris les prêts privés, les prêts IRA autogérés, etc. Alors regardez, il n’ya aucune excuse pour ne pas commencer quand vous avez la bonne équipe de systèmes en place. Louer pour la retraite le fera pour vous. Visitez RenttoRetirement.com. C’est RenttoRetirement.com ou vous pouvez les appeler à ce numéro. Es-tu prêt? 307-421-4049.

J: Merci beaucoup au sponsor d’aujourd’hui. Maintenant, sans plus tarder, invitons Joshua Dorkin, fondateur de BiggerPockets.com.

Joshua Dorkin, bienvenue dans le tout premier podcast BiggerPockets Business et promis, ce sera la dernière fois que je vous appelle Joshua.

Carol: Je peux t'appeler Josué une ou deux fois. Je ne peux pas mentir.

Josh: J'espère que vous m'appelez Joshua. Hey, Jay. Hé, Carol.

Carol: Hé, Joshua. C’est un plaisir de vous voir, Josh.

J: C'est génial de te voir. Je ne t'ai pas vu depuis longtemps.

Josh: Ouais, content de vous voir.

J: Alors, Josh, ce n’est pas la première fois que vous utilisez ce podcast pour le podcast BiggerPockets, mais c’est la première fois depuis longtemps. Alors commençons par quoi de neuf? Qu'est ce qui se passe avec toi? Je veux parler de votre passé, mais je veux d’abord savoir ce qui se passe aujourd’hui. Pourquoi ne vous avons-nous pas beaucoup vu derrière ce microphone depuis un moment?

Josh: Sûr. Donc, vous ne m'avez plus entendu parler de moi depuis un moment, ni vu de moi depuis un moment parce que je me suis retiré de l’entreprise. Après 14 ans. Nous avons eu ce que nous pourrions appeler un événement et je me suis éloigné le 17 novembre. Nous avons vécu des expériences familiales assez sérieuses. Ma fille a subi une opération de routine qui a entraîné de nombreuses complications et qui a nécessité une intervention chirurgicale d'urgence.

Après tout, dans l’ensemble, le chaos et je ne le sais pas – être âgé de neuf ans et vivre tout cela est assez horrible. En conséquence, elle a développé un trouble appelé trouble de conversion. Et c’est un peu comme une réaction au stress post-traumatique, mais dans son cas, elle s’est retrouvée essentiellement paralysée à partir du cou.

Carol: Je suis désolé.

Josh: Ouais ouais ouais. Donc, à partir de la fin novembre, et je pense que c'est peut-être la première fois que je parle probablement de ce qui est spécifiquement arrivé ici, mais vous savez, après la première intervention chirurgicale, je suis allé à la chirurgie avec mon enfant et les choses n'étaient pas normales. le lendemain. Je ne suis donc jamais retourné au travail. Et pour les mois suivants, mon travail consistait à prendre soin de ma fille. Et elle n'avait que neuf ans, une gamine de 60 livres. Ma femme ne pouvait pas la porter et s’occuper d’elle. Je veux dire, elle pouvait, mais nous devions la déplacer physiquement et faire des choses, alors c'est devenu mon travail de la réhabiliter et d'être là et d'aider, vous savez, ma femme et d'être là pour ma famille.

Donc, la raison pour laquelle j'ai disparu de la vue publique était la première valeur fondamentale de BiggerPockets, qui est la famille avant tout. Alors j'ai dû m'éloigner. Dieu merci, appelez cela en février ou en mars, nous avons commencé à la voir commencer à se remettre assez rapidement. Ouais. Et deux semaines avant la fin des cours, elle se rendait physiquement à l’école. Je veux dire, elle était allée à l'école avec un fauteuil roulant et une marchette et tout ça, mais oui.

Et depuis lors, il y a environ un an, nous nous sommes efforcés de continuer à la réadapter et à rétablir le genre de famille. Vraiment juste essayer de ré-acclimater tout le monde, parce que j'ai deux autres enfants. Mais à la suite de cela, tout ce que nous avons traversé, je pense que tout être humain sensé réévaluerait ses priorités. C’est juste, qu'est-ce qui est important pour moi?

J: Je veux parler de tout cela car il y a beaucoup de choses à déballer là-bas. Je veux dire, il y avait ta vie de famille. Il y avait votre vie professionnelle et je connais les horreurs de votre vie de famille. En regardant en arrière, je sais que j’ai vu des photos d’elle récemment sur Facebook et qu’elle est superbe. On dirait qu’elle a retrouvé la santé, alors c’est le bon côté de sa convalescence, c’est fantastique.

Mais il y a aussi beaucoup de bons côtés dans l'entreprise et certains changements dans l'entreprise qui vous ont également affecté. Je veux y arriver. Mais il y a probablement des gens sur ce podcast en ce moment qui n'ont peut-être pas commencé avec BiggerPockets. Ils ne sont peut-être pas au courant de ce que vous avez fait et de l’entreprise que vous avez développée, du moins pas aussi familière que certains d’entre nous. Donc, si cela vous convient, j'aimerais prendre quelques minutes pour prendre du recul, puis reprendre en quelque sorte ce qui s’est passé. Est-ce bien avec toi?

Josh: Ceci est votre spectacle, mec. Je ne vais pas le détourner.

J: Excellent. Alors, allons …

Josh: Très bien, revenons au spectacle …

J: Commençons donc par ceux qui ne connaissent pas bien Joshua Dorkin – Josh Dorkin, qui êtes-vous et d’où venez-vous et pourquoi êtes-vous ici avec nous aujourd'hui?

Josh: Sûr. Je pense que je suis ici à cause de mon charmant personnage.

Carol: Absolument. Sans une question, Joshua Dorkin, voilà pourquoi.

Josh: Non, je suis ici, je crois, car j’ai créé BiggerPockets. Et pour ceux qui ne connaissent pas BiggerPockets, il s'agit de la plus grande collection d'investisseurs immobiliers au monde. Vous savez, je vais revenir en arrière et expliquer vraiment ce que cela signifie, mais il y a environ 14 ans, j'avais pataugé. J'étais dans l'industrie du divertissement. J'étais un acteur raté. J'ai échoué beaucoup de choses. Échouer, c'est bien. Si vous échouez, cela signifie que vous essayez. Je suis allé à l'université à St. Louis, Wash U. J'ai grandi à New York. Mes parents étaient des entrepreneurs.

J: Qu'ont fait tes parents?

Josh: Maman avait un magasin de vente au détail. Elle était dans le commerce de la fourrure. Papa, entrepreneur en électricité. J'ai donc grandi en regardant ces gens, puis des oncles et des tantes, et tous les autres ont également fait leur propre boulot.

Carol: Donc, vous étiez tous dans le même état d'esprit.

Josh: Oh oui. Et vous n’avez pas à le dire à quelqu'un, allez-y et soyez un entrepreneur. S'ils y ont grandi, je pense que cela devient presque inné. Donc, après le collège, je suis devenu négociant en valeurs mobilières. Brûlé assez rapidement à ce sujet. Je suis devenu acteur parce que j'ai toujours voulu faire ça comme un gamin. J'ai fini par me lancer dans cette entreprise et explorer chaque élément de cette entreprise. J'étais dans le casting. Je travaillais dans la production, la gestion, les agents – je travaillais dans tous les domaines de l'entreprise, principalement dans des rôles minables, mais vous savez, au moins, je l'explorais et l'apprendais parce que je voulais en savoir autant que moi. pourrait.

Je pense que l’idée d’être un concierge est la façon dont vous apprenez une entreprise. Vous commencez par le bas et vous travaillez à la hausse. Alors j'ai fait ça. Les divertissements m'ont amené en Californie. En Californie, j’ai décidé que j’allais quitter cette entreprise parce que, franchement, ce différentiel entre la Californie et New York était comparable à celui du divertissement. À New York, ils vous diront que vous êtes en face de vous. En Californie, ils vous souriront et dès que vous vous retournerez, ils vous planteront un couteau dans le dos.

J: Avant de quitter votre entreprise, je dois mentionner que je vais faire de mon mieux –

Josh: Pour déterrer tout le …

J: Josh a donc un clip quelque part à son actif dans Saturday Night Live avec Jerry Seinfeld.

Josh: Oh oui. C’est là-bas.

J: Je vais donc creuser ça et le mettre dans les notes de spectacle.

Carol: Je mets tellement ça dans la série.

J: Tout le monde vérifie les notes de spectacle.

Josh: Je suis heureux que vous sachiez ce clip pour que vous ne détourniez pas les autres.

J: Oui, je suis en mission.

Josh: Donc, je suis en Californie. J'étais dans et hors de l'entreprise, cherchais des moyens de gagner de l'argent, je savais qu'à l'université, j'étais dans l'immobilier et j'ai obtenu mon permis d'agent immobilier. Je n'ai pas aimé. Je n’aimais pas le côté des ventes de l’immobilier pour de nombreuses raisons, mais j’ai vécu deux périodes différentes. Je cherche juste de l'argent.

J'ai fini par obtenir un titre d'enseignement suppléant et un jour, je sortais avec cette fille dont la famille dirigeait une école. Sa mère avait commencé l'école et elle avait gravi les échelons. Mon amie à l'époque – et ils avaient besoin d'un enseignant suppléant. Alors, elle savait que j'avais les informations d'identification, appelé et a dit que vous voulez entrer et travailler? Et j'ai fait. Le jour où je suis entré, le professeur que je remplaçais pour quitter. Et je sortais avec cette fille donc je ne pouvais pas dire non quand elle a dit, veux un travail?

Carol: Ce n’était pas vraiment une option. Mais je tiens simplement à souligner quelque chose que je trouve fascinant, à savoir que la petite amie dont vous parlez se trouve être maintenant votre femme, n'est-ce pas? Avance rapide.

Josh: Elle est ma femme.

Carol: Et n’est-ce pas une coïncidence intéressante que sa mère, a-t-on dit, ait commencé l’école?

Josh: Il est.

Carol: Julie a donc également une expérience entrepreneuriale. Donc, ça a l'air de l'obtenir, non? J'espère donc que nous pourrons en parler plus tard, à mesure que nous discutons davantage, de l'importance de soutenir ce processus entrepreneurial.

Josh: Oh, je veux dire. C'est fou. Elle a supporté tellement de déchets, ce n’est même pas drôle. Donc voilà. Nous en parlerons. Et maintenant, je suis professeur à plein temps et un jour, mon frère m’appelle. Et il dit, hé Josh, j’ai acheté une propriété et je pense que vous devriez regarder les chiffres. Et j'étais comme, wow, ça a l'air super. Très excitant. J'ai toujours été dans l'immobilier, mais je n'ai jamais eu le courage de faire quoi que ce soit.

Alors je suis monté dans un avion, je suis allé là où il était à Saint-Louis et j'ai commencé à regarder la propriété. Et c'était comme, wow, ce sont des propriétés vraiment bon marché, parce qu'elles l'étaient. Et je me suis dit, vous savez quoi, je vais en acheter. Donc j'avais économisé de l'argent. J'ai eu quelques bâtiments. Et j'étais prêt à devenir riche. J'étais enthousiaste et j'enseignais. J'avais ces propriétés et les gestionnaires m'ont aidée. Peu à peu, des problèmes ont commencé à surgir.

J'étais à 2 000 kilomètres et ma capacité à traiter ces problèmes à 2 000 kilomètres était un sérieux défi. Alors je me suis retrouvé dans une position où je suis, que dois-je faire? Hé, un locataire vient de voler du cuivre dans une unité vacante. Maintenant, tu fais quoi? Alors vous allez à la librairie et les livres ne parlent pas vraiment de ça.

Vous allez en ligne, ou du moins je le fais en ligne, et j’ai découvert qu’il existait quelques communautés qui existaient, mais j’ai eu l’impression que le modèle commercial de ces communautés ne consistait pas nécessairement à m'aider à réussir, mais à me placer dans un entonnoir de achetez du matériel coûteux – des cours, des bootcamps, des webinaires, des séminaires et toutes ces choses qui allaient me faire perdre de l'argent au lieu de m'aider réellement. Alors j'ai dit, je ne vais pas faire ça.

Bien, qu'est-ce qu'il me reste? Je ne connais pas vraiment d’investisseurs immobiliers autres que mon frère. Il ne peut pas nécessairement répondre à toutes mes questions. Mon agent avec qui je parle ne sait rien parce que la plupart des agents ne savent rien de l’investissement immobilier. Donc, j'étais dans cette position où je suis, que dois-je faire? De retour à l'université, j'ai commencé à créer des sites Web pour le plaisir. Juste, Internet commençait à fleurir alors.

Internet était à l’origine du Web graphique lorsque j’étais étudiant de première année à l’université en 1994. Et donc j'avais une certaine expérience et j'ai dit, vous savez quoi? Je vais commencer à rassembler le maximum d'informations en ligne sur les investissements immobiliers pour m'aider. J’ai commencé à mettre au point des outils, des ressources, puis j’ai eu l’impression que ce serait vraiment bien si je pouvais créer une sorte de communauté. Donc, je ne savais pas vraiment comment programmer au-delà d’une programmation Web vraiment basique et de quelque chose appelé HTML.

Donc, j'étais comme, je pourrais aussi bien apprendre. J'apprends tout ce que je sais. Alors je suis allé et j'ai trouvé un logiciel que je peux créer pour créer un forum, donc comme une communauté en ligne, et c'était un peu le début. C'était l'origine. J'avais ce nom de domaine génial, BiggerPockets, et maintenant je devais aller chercher des personnes pour m'aider à répondre à mes questions sur l'immobilier, puis trouver comment attirer les gens à rester et commencer ainsi le dilemme du dilemme de comme, comment puis-je construire cette entreprise?

Et au fait, ce n’était pas conçu pour être une entreprise. C’était littéralement ce site de loisir qui m'aidait à cesser d’échouer en tant qu’investisseur immobilier.

Carol: Donc, vous avez eu ce besoin. Vous avez eu l’idée de créer une communauté à un moment où ils sont vraiment – j’essaie d’y repenser, alors qu’il n’y avait pas beaucoup de communautés en ligne à l’époque, non? Alors vous avez dit que vous êtes sorti et que vous avez parlé à d'autres personnes, trouvé d'autres ressources en ligne. Vous souvenez-vous où vous êtes allés ou comment vous avez rassemblé ces personnes dans la communauté?

Josh: Donc, les ressources étaient faciles. Je viens de googler tous … eh bien, est-ce que j'ai Google? Je ne sais même pas si j'étais sur Google. J'aurais peut-être utilisé Meta Crawler ou Dog Cloud, mais vous savez, je les ai trouvés. C'était facile. Amener les gens à venir était la partie la plus difficile. Et moi non plus, il n’y avait pas de manuel. Aujourd'hui, il existe des sites tels que Pat Flynn et tous ces sites Web entrepreneuriaux pour vous apprendre à créer une communauté. À l'époque, il y avait des communautés de personnes qui ont construit des sites Web.

Et beaucoup d’entre eux sont toujours présents, Site Point, Web Pro World, et j’allais donc dans ces communautés pour apprendre ce que faisaient les autres et je me suis rendu compte qu’ils vous permettaient de créer – c’est la signature du forum. Au bas de tous vos messages de discussion, vous pouvez donc appeler cela un mini-texte de présentation, n'est-ce pas? Et ce que j'ai fait, c'est que j'ai écrit «BiggerPockets, Real Estate Investing Community», et j'ai mis un lien.

Et j'ai remarqué en regardant mes statistiques, que je postais dans ces endroits et posais des questions, que les gens se présentaient sur mon site. Et j'étais comme, oh, d'accord. C'est super. Eh bien, si j'y allais, ils avaient tous un domaine appelé «Hors sujet». Donc, vous savez, si vous êtes en train de vous lancer dans la conception Web ou si vous êtes dans une communauté, il existe généralement un «Hors sujet» où vous pouvez simplement poser au hasard, poser une question au hasard, des commentaires. J'allais donc dans les «hors sujets» et je remarquais qu'il y avait des discussions sur l'argent et les finances et au hasard sur l'immobilier.

Et je me suis demandé, oh, je me demande si je répondrai à ces questions, si ces personnes verront ma signature et seront ensuite incitées à venir visiter ma communauté et à y participer. Et alors j'ai commencé à faire ça. Alors, petit à petit, ça a fonctionné. Cela, combiné avec peut-être qu'il y avait peut-être un faux utilisateur ou dix qui se parlaient au tout début, très, très tôt, posant et répondant à leurs propres questions – éventuellement, il y avait des gens qui n'étaient pas moi –

J: Je pense que beaucoup de gens ne se rendent pas compte que, si vous n’avez jamais construit de communauté ou si vous n’avez jamais vraiment pensé aux communautés, il existe ce que l’on appelle «effets de réseau». Et les effets de réseau sont essentiellement, jusqu’à ce que vous ayez un certain niveau de masse critique, jusqu’à ce que vous ayez suffisamment de personnes pour écrire et répondre aux questions, vous n’obtenez pas cette croissance organique.

Donc, si vous entrez dans une communauté, il y a cinq autres personnes, vous ne publierez rien car vous ne vous attendez pas à une réponse satisfaisante. Et s’il n’ya que cinq autres personnes, vous ne répondez pas à une question car vous perdez votre temps. Ainsi, toutes les communautés atteindront soit cette masse critique, ce point critique où elles seront autonomes, il y aura suffisamment de personnes pour attirer d’autres personnes et elles continueront à se développer là où elles n’atteignent pas ce stade. Ou ils rétrécissent et ils s'en vont.

C’est donc très facile. Au cours des années, j’ai vu beaucoup de développeurs communautaires créer une communauté. Si, dans trois, cinq ou dix mois, ils n’ont plus de masse critique et ne croissent pas, ils donnent simplement up. Alors pouvez-vous nous aider à traverser la croissance de BiggerPockets? Je sais que ce n’était pas rapide.

Josh: Cela a pris une éternité. C'était très long. Je pense que le premier regard sur le site, ce premier utilisateur qui est venu indépendamment de moi a dit à ma mère et à mon frère de se montrer et ils se sont moqués de moi. Et mes amis, qui se moquaient aussi de moi. Mes parents ne se moquaient pas vraiment de moi. Ils ont juste dit, qu'est-ce que tu fais? Trouver un travail. Je dirais donc que la première fois que quelqu'un a posté sur le forum, ce n'était pas moi qui posais des questions, c'était excitant, non?

Carol: Tu étais comme, oui, enfin. J'ai eu ça.

Josh: Oui, et la première fois que quelqu'un a posté quelque chose et que quelqu'un d'autre y a répondu, mis à part le fait que je fusse à la recherche de la réponse et que répondre à cette question par quelqu'un soit également magique. Mais cela a probablement pris deux ou trois ans avant que nous en soyons au point où il n’était pas nécessaire de prendre part à toutes les conversations pour que la conversation se poursuive, peut-être même davantage. Encore une fois, je ne me souviens pas quand nous avons eu notre premier modérateur, mais l’un de nos premiers utilisateurs était un gars du nom de John Holdman, qui est modérateur de la communauté 14 ans plus tard.

Carol: C'est génial.

Josh: Il est tombé amoureux de ce que nous faisions. Et ce que nous faisions était spécial et la raison pour laquelle les gens sont venus était qu'il n'y avait rien de tel en ligne ou hors ligne. Il n’y avait pas d’endroit où aller pour poser des questions, obtenir des réponses et ne pas avoir quelqu'un qui vous vende quelque chose, non?

Et encore aujourd'hui, si vous vous rendez dans la plupart des communautés, vous avez une question: comment fonctionne un prêt ARM? Qu'est-ce qu'un prêt hypothécaire à taux ajustable? Comment cela fonctionne-t-il? Ce que vous allez obtenir, c’est peut-être une ou deux personnes qui répondent, puis beaucoup de personnes disent, hé, je peux vous obtenir un prêt ARM. Ou je peux vous obtenir un prêt ARM. Dans d’autres communautés de l’immobilier, c’est comme ça que ça fonctionne

Nous avons donc établi un ensemble de règles que beaucoup de gens n’ont pas vraiment aimé. Cela énervait les gens parce que personne d’autre ne le faisait auparavant, et cela irritait les gens qui pensaient avoir le droit de le faire n’importe où. Et nous avons dit, non vous ne l’êtes pas. Ce n'est pas comme ça que ça marche ici et ça, et vous êtes partis. Maintenant, tout le monde était comme, merde sainte! Ceci est incroyable.

Je peux aller poser mes questions et ne pas craindre que quelqu'un vienne me vendre ou me vendre. Et, il n’ya pas de questions stupides. Je peux poser une question aussi bête que possible et je ne vais pas me moquer de moi. Vous savez, nous avons donc pris en compte toutes ces idées que j’avais en tête et disons: allons-y, appliquons cet ensemble de règles à BiggerPockets. Et ensuite transformé en quelque chose de vraiment, vraiment spécial. Et au fil du temps, cette chose – nous sommes arrivés au point d’effet réseau.

C’est quatre ou cinq ans et c’est un point très important qui, à mon avis, doit être ramené à la maison. Tous les utilisateurs de Facebook, les spécialistes du marketing et de l'immobilier sont constamment bombardés par le message suivant: si vous vous levez à 3 h, si vous travaillez dur 20 heures par jour, si vous ne le faites pas. une vie sociale, vous allez être riche dans 6 ou 12 mois. Et peut-être que les gourous ne diront pas ces mots, mais c’est en gros le message que vous avez dans la tête, à savoir que si vous travaillez dur, vous allez devenir riche rapidement.

Et comme vous l’avez vu, c’est juste BS. Je veux dire, nous avons cette génération d’entrepreneurs en herbe qui sont terrifiés à l'idée de travailler pendant cinq ou dix ans parce qu'ils pensent que s'ils ne se sont pas enrichis au cours des trois ou six premiers mois, ils font quelque chose de mal.

Mais ce n’est pas seulement leur faute. Mais à la fin de la journée, et vous avez dit, les gourous. Je veux dire, ce sont les capital-risqueurs. Ce sont les investisseurs providentiels. C’est le média technologique. C’est la presse. Tout le monde insiste sur l’idée que Facebook, Insta et toutes ces choses-là, oui, ils sont passés de rien à des entreprises d’un milliard de dollars.

Et si vous créez une entreprise qui, hé, vous savez quoi, si je crée une entreprise qui rapporte un million de dollars ou si je crée une entreprise qui génère 100 000 $ de ma famille pour un an, c’est un échec. C’est ce qui se passe aujourd’hui et c’est horrible parce que je vais dans des salles avec des entrepreneurs et que je vois ces gens-là se dire: je vais créer une entreprise d’un milliard de dollars. Et s’ils ne le font pas, ils se voient comme un échec.

Carol: Au cours des deux ou trois premières années, vous avez enseigné et vous avez été tellement impliqué chaque seconde lorsque vous n’enseigniez pas, sur BiggerPockets. Est-ce exact? Donc, de façon réaliste, combien d’heures par semaine travailliez-vous?

Josh: J'ai donc quitté mon poste d'enseignante après deux ans. Deux ans après mes débuts avec BiggerPockets. Donc, quand j'ai arrêté après deux ans, je ne gagnais pas d'argent, même de façon lointaine. Juste à ce moment-là, je me suis aussi marié. Et ma femme était prête à supporter le fait que je fasse bupkiss, vraiment. Et en nous soutenant, j'avais toujours économisé mon argent. Je ne l'ai jamais dépensé pour des trucs idiots.

Mais pour l’autre partie de votre question, je travaillais – je me levais le matin. Je commencerais à travailler, puis nous partirions, nous irions au travail. Chaque fois que j'avais une période libre, je travaillais. Pendant la pause déjeuner, je travaillais. Donc, je mettais probablement 40 semaines de 50 heures en parallèle de mon travail d’enseignant d’une quarantaine d’heures sur BiggerPockets.

Carol: Et puis après deux ans, vous avez finalement arrêté. Une fois que vous avez quitté votre emploi à temps plein, voyons, avez-vous réduit votre temps de travail? J'ai l'impression que la réponse à cette question est un grand non retentissant. Pas même proche. C’est toujours, allons-y pour que cela se produise, non?

Josh: Allons-y et réalisons-le. Et remarquez que, probablement, au cours des deux premières années, je gagnais peut-être un sou par heure. Ou moins. Et vous savez, cela n'a pas radicalement changé immédiatement. Je veux dire, il a fallu beaucoup de temps pour que ces revenus, ces revenus augmentent pour la plate-forme. Il y a eu différentes phases de cette activité. Cela passait du site de loisirs au commerce de mode de vie, ce qui était plutôt le cas lorsque j'ai quitté mon autre emploi.

Et maintenant j'ai eu cette affaire de style de vie. Maintenant, remarquez, je n'avais pas d'entreprise de style de vie parce que je n'avais pas de vie. Et puis, j'ai embauché mon premier employé et c'est devenu une véritable entreprise. Et puis, je sais que nous allons en venir à la phase finale, en novembre dernier, lorsque j’ai fait appel à un partenaire, et cette entreprise est maintenant en plein régime.

J: Je veux parler de la première embauche, mais avant cela, je veux juste aborder un sujet que je me suis toujours demandé. J'ai fait partie de BiggerPockets. Je fais partie de la communauté depuis plus de 10 ans maintenant, et quelque chose qui a toujours résisté …

Josh: Merci pour cela, au fait.

J: Je vous remercie. Donc, si je fais mes calculs rapides, ce que je veux dire, c’est que vous avez travaillé dans ce secteur pendant environ 10 000 heures avant de gagner suffisamment d’argent pour pouvoir dire que je peux quitter mon emploi, peut-être même plus longtemps avant de gagner autant. argent.

Et vous avez pris la décision hâtive de mettre en avant vos valeurs personnelles, à savoir que nous n’aurons pas de gourous, que nous n’aurons pas de vendeurs sur le site, que nous ne vendrons pas au-delà de votre profit. Vous avez pris cette décision. Et cela aurait probablement été, et je sais que plus tard, comme 2010, 2012, 2015, après que BiggerPockets ait commencé à exploser, il aurait été vraiment facile de vendre et de gagner de l'argent rapidement. Mais vous n'avez jamais fait ça.

Josh: Je n'ai jamais pensé à le faire.

J: Vraiment?

Josh: À aucun moment cela ne m'a traversé l'esprit. Maintenant, cela ne veut pas dire qu’il n’ya pas eu de lutte. Je pense que la lutte était où est la ligne? Alors, quel est le noir, quel est le blanc et où est le gris? Parce que vous savez, nous devons transformer cela en une entreprise viable. Alors, comment gagnez-vous de l'argent sans traverser aucune sorte de ligne?

Et c’est la lutte à laquelle j’ai eu à faire et à laquelle nous avons eu à faire et vous savez, nous espérons que la société fera face pour toujours. Cette ligne est-elle bien définie? Je dirais qu’il ya définitivement un gris flou, et ma règle a toujours été de rester fou. Je pense qu'il y a une différence entre les valeurs et le pivotement de la tactique et des stratégies. Je crois que vous établissez vos valeurs fondamentales, qui vous êtes, quel type d'entreprise que vous souhaitez être, quel type d'entreprise que vous souhaitez gérer, et vous vous en tenez à cela. Regardez, les valeurs fondamentales créent la culture.

Au fait, je pensais que tous ces mots étaient des conneries, il y a cinq ou six ans. Comme, je ne l’ai pas compris. Je n’ai pas compris jusqu’à ce que nous arrivions à un point d’échelle où nous avions 20 ou 30 personnes travaillant pour la société et tout d’un coup, le chaos et potentiellement des personnes qui n’étaient pas de bons candidats travaillaient pour l’entreprise et je comme, pourquoi? Donc, vous ne pouvez pas – je pense que vous ne pouvez pas changer de stratégie, de tactique, comme, vous savez, nous avons essayé cela, et cela ne fonctionne pas. OK, nous allons changer. C'est super.

Comme par exemple, nous allons créer une entreprise de livres, mais c’est un échec. Eh bien, frappez-le sous un autre angle et donnez-le à tous. Et au fait, aujourd’hui, la plupart des gens me disent: je vais vous donner une semaine ou deux et si ça ne marche pas, je vais arrêter de fumer. Ou un mois ou six mois. Je ne pense pas que les gens se rendent compte que vous devez essayer. Ce n'est pas essayer. C'est de la foutaise.

La plupart des gens qui commencent un podcast ont arrêté après cinq ou dix émissions. Ils ont trois auditeurs et ils ont terminé. Mais devinez quoi? Le 11^th spectacle était celui où vous alliez réellement réussir.

J: Vous avez touché quelque chose. Vous avez commencé à parler de culture. Vous avez commencé à parler de la constitution d'équipes. Je veux avancer un peu. Et je sais que beaucoup d'entrepreneurs se battent contre cela. I’ve struggled with it. I was there when you were dealing with it so I know you struggled with it, too. And that’s making your first big hire. You started the business in 2004. I’m going to kind of do a spoiler here. You didn’t make your first big hire until what? I think it was like 2012?

Josh: ’12 or ’13.

J: I was there. We were having discussions when you were talking about hiring Brandon, and you were talking about, oh—I have to carve out equity. I need to get somebody really vested in the company, somebody whose goals are aligned with my goals, aligned with the company’s goals. And to do that, I have to do more than just pay a salary.

I have to give him equity. I have to give him stock. And I remember, that was a struggle for you. So can you walk us through a little bit about how you decided it was time to make that hire, the struggle you went through to make that hire, and ultimately how it led to where you are today with 30-40 employees?

Josh: I would say, the struggle was, I again never started this with the intent of building a business, right? It was a hobby and then the hobby began this lifestyle business. Now, I ended up needing contractors because I was a hack of a coder. So I needed contractors to help me code. By year twoish, year and a halfish, hired a team of contractors. They sucked. I mean, it was terrible.

Carol: When you say terrible, tell me how terrible.

Josh: I mean, I paid like—total of $15,000-$20,000 for this outsourced shop. I was living in L.A. to build out—when we went from forum to build it into the “MySpace” job. Hey, MySpace was hot. So I was trying to build the MySpace of real estate investing and I blew $15,000-$20,000 on the development of this and I got back a chunk of code that didn’t work. It was garbage.

And I had never worked with a team like that. I didn’t know how to do milestones and make sure that things were working—I just waited until the end and got back a product that was broken. And my money was gone. I was like, okay.

Carol: Sensationnel. Not a good day.

Josh: No. One of the many bad ones. And that was the day where probably 98% of people would have quit.

Carol: Why didn’t you quit?

Josh: Because as Jay-Z said, “I’ve got only one rule. I will not lose.” I don’t like losing. I don’t like having other people be the cause of my own failure. I can’t let you dictate my success or my failure. I am going to be the only one to dictate my success or my failure. So I was like, okay. Put your big boy pants on and find another way to do it.

Now, I had no money at the time so I had to go back to zero, start building up money to be able to do something and I came in with another strategy, which was instead of building this massive MySpace-like thing, I’m going to take one tiny piece of it, hire somebody to build that tiny piece, and little by little, piecemeal by piecemeal, we’re going to build it up.

By the way, there is now a word for that. That’s called lean startup. I didn’t know what lean startup was. The word didn’t exist. But I had no other way to go about doing things.

Carol: And what an amazing learning experience, right? That’s what we talk about as entrepreneurs. We take those things that can be seen as the big failures and frankly, for whatever it’s worth, Jay and I, we talk to our kids about this all the time. Around the dinner table.

We’re like, okay, what was your favorite part of your day? What was the best thing that happened today? And most importantly, we really hammer out, and the teachers freak out about this—you say those words to your eight and nine-year-olds? We’re like, yeah, we do. What did you fail at today?

If they can’t come up with anything like, you have to go out there and make a mistake and then tell us about it. Because it helps you learn so much, right? Look into ways of doing stuff.

Josh: Yeah, absolutely. I know there was something else I was supposed to answer in there, but you know—

J: I want to talk about Brandon. You hired Brandon?

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

J: I remembered that took months because you were struggling. So tell us a little bit about that.

Josh: So I had the experience with these contractors and so the hiring of Brandon came at a very interesting point inn the business. You guys have asked a lot about this long journey—so there were a lot of days in those eight years where I was just miserable. I was like, why am I doing this? This is just stupid. I’m not making any money. I had met with VCs. I had gone and met with angel investors. Never like seriously I’m going to go raise money but like, hey, is it possible? What can I do about this business model, blah blah blah.

And throughout it, they are always like, you’re crazy. This is not a viable model for continued success. Maybe there are other ways to go make money. I was watching my friends who graduated from college with me, making very good livings, doing very well. And I’m 30-years-old. 29, 30, 31, 32. And I’m really struggling. I mean, I’m barely making any money. I’m barely. What’s worse than a teacher’s salary? Mine.

Yet, I’m continuing through it because I see that I’m helping people. I know, in my soul, that these things are going to be successful. I’ve just got to figure it out. And so, I got to a point on year eight where I just, you know, I turned to Julie and I just started bawling. I mean, absolutely bawling. I was miserable. I went seven and a half years without taking a day off.

By the way, this is not like, I’m not bragging about this. This was stupid. I went seven and a half years—I didn’t take a day off. When my kids were born, I brought my laptop and I worked. When I travelled to see my family, I took my laptop. I never had a vacation because I worked every single day for seven and a half years, which is very stupid, by the way. Don’t ever do that if you’re listening. Days off are very important. I felt trapped.

So the reason I was bawling and crying to my wife was, I was beyond burnt out. I was trapped. I could not escape my business. I became a prisoner to this business. And I didn’t know what to do so I ended up hiring a consultant, a guy I knew in the real estate industry who was just a wicked smart guy. And I hired him to look at this business. Tell me, should I quit? Should I just shut it down? Should I sell it? Or should I move forward, and if so, how the hell do I do that?

I never wanted to take on debt. I never borrowed money to start the business. I started the business with the six dollars it cost me in hosting. That was it. And my sweat equity. I mean, I invested $6 to build, you know, a company of huge magnitude and that’s all it took, was just hard work. So when he came over the course of a couple of weeks, looked at the business, and broke it down, realized that I had kind of gone off the rails on certain parts of the business we had built, what we call a feature bloat.

Too many features that weren’t very successful and we didn’t have the management to kind of handle them because I was the management. We were the management. I always use ‘we’ when I talk to people about the business. ‘We’ was me. That’s how I looked big. I had people thought we were dozens of people. We were one people but—

And he said, he was like, Josh, you can do any of the above but given your model, I think this thing has legs. You’re now making, after year eight, enough money where you can probably squeeze out somebody. You’re going to have to eat some ramen noodles for a while. And so, we went from—we found Brandon and I was very scared. After eight years doing it by myself, trusting somebody to come in was scary.

But we kind of dated. Brandon was writing for BiggerPockets. He was an author on the platform. We became friends, chitchatted for a while. Then he became a contractor for a little while and then he became an employee. He lived across the country. But he and I immediately began working, continuing to work 100-hour weeks, but it was like this exciting, exciting phase. He got paid very poorly. Making up for it now.

But he took a risk. He didn’t need to work for me, was the thing. So I got lucky. I found a guy who was a success story of my platform. BiggerPockets allowed Brandon to become financially independent at the point at which I hired him. So he didn’t need a job. He wanted the job. He loved BiggerPockets and so what better person to bring somebody into your company than somebody who loves—

Carol: That’s the ambassador you could have asked for right, somebody so involved, somebody who has made so many connections on this site, somebody who has truly built this livelihood as a result of the hard work you put into your site, is the best brand manager you could ever ask for to go out and sing to the masses, come to BiggerPockets, come to BiggerPockets, come to BiggerPockets.

Josh: I know a couple of other people like that.

J: Let me point out that I think this is actually one of the biggest reasons BiggerPockets has been so successful. The way you’ve fostered your relationship with your members, there’s this mutual benefit between you, the owner, the site. Everybody that’s running the site, and the people that are contributing. And there are several members, Brandon is one. I’m certainly one. We’ve literally built our brand and our livelihood and our careers on the back of BiggerPockets.

You don’t often see that with other social networks. Sure, people can carve out a little name for themselves in forums or whatever, but literally, I can name a half dozen people on the site that have built their brands because of BiggerPockets. And the mutual benefit between the company and its members, I believe, is a large portion of its success.

Josh: Je suis d'accord.

J: Yeah, and you deserve full credit because you’ve been so giving with allowing your members to come in and you ask a lot of them and you give a lot back. And it’s that synergy, that symbiotic relationship between you and the company and the members that has made both sides tremendously successful.

Josh: Je suis d'accord. And by the way, you can think of a half dozen, I can think of dozens and I’m sure there’s thousands. Which is crazy.

J: Absolument.

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Carol: You brought Brandon on, and when you brought Brandon on, would you say it was one of those moments where the sky opened up and you were like, there’s a light at the end of the tunnel. Was it that hire, or was it at another point where you’re like, wow, I can really take it somewhere else and maybe contribute a little bit differently and see where this thing can really go?

Josh: So it was that hire. Brandon, for me, was that person. You know, I look at all the people I’ve met in my career, you guys included. And Jay, you’re one of the smartest people I’ve ever met. I mean, you are absolutely brilliant and I have more respect for you than I think you will ever know and there are a lot of people like you out there that I know. 1If I did not hire Brandon, I don’t know that BiggerPockets would be what it is today.

Carol: Impressionnant. Major shout-out, Brandon.

Josh: I mean, well—he’s such an amazing complement to who I am, which is I think why it worked. I only wish I had found him when I started, but I wasn’t trying to build a business at the time. So the two of us would spend countless hours, like teenage kids on the phone brainstorming. Talking, being creative, and just chitchatting about ideas forever and ever and ever, and which is why we are as successful as we are.

First, we did that. Then, we would actually try the ideas. Half of them would fail. The next one would be successful. We’d push at it and then we’d do the next one. And then we’d keep going. And so he allowed for me to step back a little bit. I went from 100 hours a week, every single week, to 90 hours a week. I mean, free time like there’s no tomorrow.

Carol: Sensationnel. Bien pour vous.

Josh: It was amazing and really, I would say, that’s when BP went from a lifestyle business to a company, right? I would say, the next hires, and there were a few of them—Hillary and Allison and Scott and Rob, I really kind of lump those guys in the next phase together. That began like this small core of a company.

But the willingness of people to take a risk on something like BiggerPockets. The willingness for folks to take a risk and work for a small company. Not just tech but like any kind of small company is not to be understated. My brother’s been laid off I think four or five times from tech companies, and he keeps going because it’s fun, it’s exciting, it’s new. Droite? You get something out of the lack of stability at these companies. Some people like it and some people like big companies, but I’m very grateful to all those people who were willing to take those risks.

But eventually, I’d say, Scott Trench who is CEO of BiggerPockets today, host of the BiggerPockets Money Show, author of Set for Life, and an all-around amazing guy—he brought something that Brandon didn’t bring, which was, get a goddamned life, Josh. Brandon is like me, willing to slave away countless hours for little reward, hoping for future rewards. Scott really started—he’s the guy who yelled at me to take a day off. Scott would repeatedly say to me, this is your money, Josh. Why don’t you take some money out of the company? Years later, when we started to make real money. And I said no, it’s the company’s money. And we literally would argue and fight. And he’d say, dude. This is why you’ve worked for 12 years, 10 years, to be successful. I needed somebody to actually explain that to me because I felt I was wronging the company by actually withdrawing the money, not reinvesting every single penny back in the business.

Carol: When Scott came along and you started hiring the second wave of people to really start ramping things up even more to the next level, how are you feeling personally, as a founder of this thing, relinquishing so much of that control? Like, I remember, for example, back in the day when I had to go to a job that wasn’t our own business.

When I built out big teams, there were so many things that I miss about the day-to-day being in the business, but I realized that for my team to be successful and to grow our function, that I needed to work on leadership and development. But at the same time, I kind of was bummed that those guys got to do all the cool stuff. So how did your thought process work kind of emotionally when you were really—you were so in it every day, every little aspect of it and then giving some of that up?

Josh: So that, it was definitely hard. I think the real challenge came when, I don’t know at the very moment that it happened but, we got to a point where I was managing, I think like 11 people or 12 people or 13 people or something. I was the only one. Like, we need to change this. I started learning hey, you can’t manage 13, 15, whatever it was, people successfully and run the company, you know.

So we went and we created this management layer. And that was very hard for me. That was way harder than handing off part of customer service to somebody or blog editing to somebody or the finances to somebody. That was actually pretty hard, the finances. But handing that off and creating management was very, very, very challenging.

And I think we did our best at it. I think it took a while for us to get good at it, all of us. And I definitely struggled with it. I would say, after that, there was yet another wave of hires where I think we slightly stepped away from our core. Hiring is a huge thing. I’ll admit, I was like an education snob for a while. And so I said I’m never going to hire anybody who doesn’t have a great degree from a great school and then I kind of had to shift that because that’s hard to do.

I’ve found that some of my best hires actually did not have a college degree when I hired them. We have a few people who finished those degrees while working for us. All in all, what I’ve learned is, people who are passionate about your business are going to be your best hires. And you know, I’ve gone and hired people from Ivys who turned out to be terrible hires. They were super smart and knew everything. Yes, they were. They were actually very smart and yes, they knew a lot. However, they didn’t know how to work for us. They didn’t care about who we were.

J: I think in the big company world, there are these things—in the tech world, they have these employees where when companies get to 20,000 or 30,000 or 50,000 people, they start hiring these people in the tech world that are called evangelists. In the non-tech big company world, they are often called brand ambassadors. People whose jobs it is to basically go around and be seen wearing the clothes of the company and do good things, kind of make the company look good on a grass roots level.

And I see these too many companies where they wait until they get to 30 or 50 or 70,000 people before they start really encouraging these employees to be brand ambassadors or evangelists. BiggerPockets is filled—I mean, 30-40 people right now, and it’s filled with 30-40 people who are the company’s evangelists, the company’s brand ambassador. Everybody in that company is excited to be there. When you see them at conferences, when you see them at seminars, when you talk to them on webinars or whatever, everybody is excited to be a part of BiggerPockets.

So when you say that you were just as focused on hiring people who were excited to be part of the company versus having the education, it seems to me that that’s even more important. People can learn the job. People can learn the technology. People can learn the business. You can’t learn enthusiasm. You can’t learn love of company. I think that’s part of why BiggerPockets has been so successful is because you’ve hired the type of people that are going to make everybody else fall in love with the company.

Josh: And that’s part of the hiring process. You know, that comes through in the hiring process. My philosophy has always been, I want to hire people. Like you said, I want everybody at my company to be the people who are at the conferences, who are capable of leading sessions on the area of expertise that they are in. And I want to encourage them to do that because frankly, a lot of people are afraid to get their people out there. A lot of people are afraid to train their people.

What I say is, if I knew, if I help make you successful, if I help build your personal brand within your own field of expertise. If you go and you decide you’re going to lead BiggerPockets, you’re going to go and be successful. And you’re going to look back and you’re going to say, you know what? That was a great time in my life. That was a great company. And you’re still going to recommend us, right?

So I think that has worked. I think that has been successful and for me, there’s so many people out there. Why be selfish? Just be good and good will come back to you and that’s always been how we’ve run the biz.

Carol: Clearly, it has served you very well. And I feel like, through all this journey, it’s really come full circle because now we’re talking about, you’ve hired all these great people that really breathe BiggerPockets out of every pore of their body, right? And they are out there recruiting more and more people, building the business over and over so it’s self-perpetuating to a point where, back to the beginning of the conversation where this horrible thing happened with your daughter, you were able to take a back seat because you knew that BiggerPockets, this baby that you had built from the very first iota in the socket of the back of your mind because of a need that you needed to solve, you know that it’s in good hands and you were able to focus on your family. So it’s nice that you built this brand that really focuses on family first and you hired in such a way that enabled you to put your family first. That’s a beautiful thing.

Josh: Je vous remercie.

J: Let’s jump forward a little bit and we get to 2017. You step away from the business for family reasons and then your daughter starts to get better and you chose not to come back. Can you talk us a little bit through what you were thinking there? I think some of us expected, okay, your daughter is getting better. He’s going to come back to BiggerPockets podcast. He’s going to start running the company day-to-day again. But you decided not to do that. So what was your thought process? What happened in that time?

Josh: Sûr. This is that whole Jerry Maguire thing. I’m not going to cry. I’m not going to cry. So, rewind about, call it two years from then. I had talked about the bad hire. It was the mismatch hires. I mean, again. Not bad people. Good people, just mismatch. It created a lot of tension at the company. It wasn’t fun working there for me. I got to a point where I was questioning myself a lot. I know I love the company. I love BiggerPockets, but do I love my job? I am CEO of a big company.

I had talked to a lot of entrepreneurs before, tech guys especially, and gals, and everyone had said, just be aware there’s two phases and two types of people out there. There’s startup people and then there’s growth people, right? And scale people, really. And you know, I was like, you guys are full of it. I don’t get it. It’s the same thing. What’s the difference? So I loved zero to call it, eight, ten people. I mean, I love that phase. It was very fun, it was very exciting. Thereafter, I really did start to stop loving that phase of my job. And then scaling and management and dealing with that. Management meetings versus like get your hands dirty and do it, right? That, I did not like as much.

Not to say I wasn’t good at it. I wasn’t great at it—I got better at it. So I started hiring. I hired a coach. Worked with a coach. I think he was fantastic. Helped me out. Learned a lot. We kind of outgrew each other and then I ended up hiring another coach. And she was fantastic and really helped me think through a lot of things I was dealing with and worked through my challenges. Ultimately, I’d say, if I were being honest with myself at the time, and I was with the second coach, the first day I sat down with her, I started crying. Bawling, tears. I cry a lot, obviously.

With this woman I had just met, really. And I was crying because I realized that I was unhappy. And I didn’t really want to face it. I hadn’t wanted to face it for a while. And this was after—we had scaled and all this and I was like, well, does this make me a bad person because I love my company but I don’t like what I’m doing, necessarily. Well, let’s find a way to make you like what you’re doing. So we tried all this stuff and did all these things. Ultimately, I liked what I was doing more and more.

By this time, I wasn’t working 100-hour weeks. I was working 40-50 hours a week. I started taking my Wednesdays out of the office instead of being locked in the office. I was now networking on Wednesdays and using that time to think and plan and to strategize. So I was at home or out, which by the way, I recommend to everybody. Most business owners don’t put enough time in to think about the business. Thinking is work. Working, it was not just doing e-mail and responding, and dealing with people. Sitting down for an hour or two hours, four hours, a week, five hours, whatever—like that’s actual work. Thinking about what you’re going to do is work.

So I was doing that. I love that time. I love the big picture strategy stuff, but I just was not—I wasn’t super happy. So all this trauma happened and you know, Scott and Brandon, along with the other managers, Dave and Rob, were running the business. And I had to be real with myself. I had been away from the day-to-day for a while. I had a lot of time to reevaluate my life. I realized, as a human being, I was not happy.

And the challenge I faced was, I felt like a fraud. I felt like a fraud because my entire existence, my entire job for 14, 13 and a half years up until then, was to help other people be successful and find happiness, right? I talked to hundreds of people on the podcast about if you don’t like your job, start figuring out what you’re going to do next. And I never had the guts to do that.

And so that was where I felt like a fraud. It was really, really, really difficult. And mind you, I’m dealing with some heavy emotional stuff at the time. I mean, crying every single day, miserable. But finally willing to say, what can be worse than this thing that I’m going through right now? Like, if I’m going to be brave, look at what my kid’s doing, man. Now is the time to be brave. And I was like, okay. I don’t like what I do. I love my company but I don’t like what I do.

Carol: I’m sorry—that’s a big revelation but also, I think big to just admit it. Say it in your out loud voice, right? When you’re—I’d be like, I just don’t like this.

Josh: Ouais. That’s not to say that I don’t like being CEO. That’s not to say I don’t like the managing people. I think it’s a combination of a whole hell of a lot of factors. Fourteen years is exhausting. I think in that 14 years, I like to say I did 35 in 14. I probably worked about 35 years in that 14. It was about that time. So I chatted with Scott and Brandon and some of the other folks who I really, really trusted and said, what’s next? How do I transition? How do I get out of this? Qu'est-ce que je dois faire?

So we went and we hired an investment bank. I interviewed several and I hired an investment bank instead of a broker because the business had grown into the size at this point where you don’t just use a business broker. It was a pretty big business.

J: So just to clarify, a broker is somebody that would help you sell the business to somebody else. An investment banker can help you do more complicated scenarios where you don’t necessarily sell off the whole business. You can sell part of it and stuff like that, right?

Josh: Yeah, we could look at lots of options. There’s various possibilities from what you can do and you don’t necessarily limit those options. You kind of present who you are and you see who’s interested and what they potentially might want to offer to you, right?

So we hired a bank and you do what’s called a process. And the process is another word for a business proctology exam. It’s hell. It’s really, really hard. And it’s particularly hard when you have a 14-year-old business. It’s also particularly hard when you’re not building a business with the intent of an exit. So if you build a business with the intent of an exit, you’re going to do certain things in your administration and your paperwork.

You’re going to be organized in certain ways, which by the way, if you’ve got a business and you’re listening, or you’re thinking of building a business, you need to be as organized as you can with every ounce of paper forever. If you ever intend to sell because you will need to find every ounce of paper and everything that you’ve ever built out. E-mails, you name it. That’s the stuff. You need to know everything about every iota of your business.

J: This is part of the downside of you never taking outside investment. So you were never accountable to outside investors. Nobody ever asked you to prove the books or to validate every dotted I or crossed T. This is the first time in 14 years, basically, you’re going back and you’re auditing 14 years of your business for the first time.

Josh: Well, so we had done it before that because we just—I’m anal retentive. I’m Boy Scout and everything was on the up and up. However, it’s just like a process is literally like having your lawyers look at a contract written ten years ago and saying hey, is that contract kosher still?

So go through the process, looked at—had lots of folks interested in the business. You do these things called management meetings where your management team goes and they present and pitch the business to folks who are interested in the company after going through, signing non-disclosure agreements—it’s all a big—you can do shows on this whole thing.

But eventually, as part of the process, we met an equity group who expressed interest. And we really, really liked the team. We liked their philosophy. We liked who they were—

J: For those that are listening that don’t know, what is a private equity group?

Josh: A private equity group is, it’s a business of folks who invest in businesses. Their job is to invest in businesses and they invest, typically, large amounts of money in businesses. And their intent on a PE deal is typically, they want a return on their investment within typically call it five years. So if they invest x amount of dollars, they want some kind of return and they’ll tell you or not tell you what that is, but it’s generally several multipliers of what they are investing in a five-year period.

So we did what was called a recap. And a recap, for those people who don’t understand, it’s a recapitalization of the business and essentially, what it means is, they’ll go and they’ll invest some money in the business. Acquire a percentage of the company and the business will continue onward. They did not buy the entire business. I still own a significant piece of the business. They came in and they are now my partners.

J: They’re not a real estate company. They’re not like looking to define the direction of the business. Your team, the BiggerPockets team is still kind of driving the business. They are just kind of a silent investor who is saying hey, just make sure we get our money back and we hold you accountable. But they are not making the day-to-day decisions, are they?

Josh: So, since I am not in the day-to-day, I can’t necessarily answer that question. What I can say is, we picked this team because we felt that they were going to be very, very hands-off. And they were going to let us run the business the way that we wanted the business to be run, the future vision that I had for BiggerPockets.

Concurrent with that was the decision for me to officially step down as CEO of BiggerPockets. So, Scott, who was acting President at the time—he was President at the time, got promoted to CEO. I stepped down and stepped away 100% from the day-to-day of the business and my role became as guide and advisor to our management team, as now I call it, “The Godfather” of BiggerPockets, so to speak. And as a member of the board.

So in our case, it could be any range, basically, with a PE shop. You may have a PE shop who come in and they are very aggressive. They want to dictate every detail. And then there’s others who say, you know, do whatever the hell you want. In our case, they are pretty hands off and it’s great and the business is doing fantastic and exceeding expectations and it’s very, very exciting. But we closed in November of 2018.

J: So it’s been about six months.

Josh: We’re getting there. And that was horrifyingly scary. As much time as I put into my baby, being able to see it controlled was frightening. But I knew that the people that I had in place as my management team believed in the company the same way that I believe in the company and treat the business the way that I wanted it treated.

So at the end of the day—and finding a PE shop, who we’ve been very happy with, McCarthy Capital out of Omaha, who I believe has the same vision for who we are and what we should be. So I was willing to take a chance because like, we had met other people who didn’t necessarily have the same beliefs. And they did.

So again, it was very exciting, and thus began the next phase of BiggerPockets, which was professionalizing this business, bringing in the people who know how to scale the company, who have been there, bringing in advisors, and thus begin the next phase of BiggerPockets. It’s very exciting to watch as the company grows and I am forever an advocate of this company. I love BiggerPockets.

It’s my baby and I want it to be successful, not just because I still am an owner of the business, but there’s very few companies on the planet that are like this company. There’s very few businesses that changes people’s lives legit. And this is one of them. I mean, it’s amazing. So here we are.

Carol: I’m just sitting here and I am so grateful you are our first guest, because your whole story, your whole journey is so inspiring. I know BiggerPockets really well. I feel like I know you really well, but to hear it encapsulated like this and to just be taken through your whole entire journey from the very beginning through how you’ve grown it, how you went through your struggles and kept persisting, and how it’s on the trajectory, is now to hear it directly from you. It’s so inspiring and it’s just amazing being on this side of the podcast is cool, and I really think our listeners are going to be as inspired, if not more. It’s a phenomenal story. Merci pour le partage.

Josh: What’s cool is, I believe in my heart at some point down the line, this company is changing lives and it’s fun to watch.

J: BiggerPockets has achieved this one metric for success that a lot of time we don’t think about. You went from—you ran this company on your own for eight years. Then, for five years, you had a team of between one and 40 people. And then, for the last six months, you had a private equity firm that came in and is kind of managing it as a big business.

And yet, from the outside, as a user of BiggerPockets, all I’ve seen is continuity. When I came along in 2008 to what I’m seeing here in 2019, it’s the same company. It’s the same site, it’s the same quality, it’s the same giving back and so, people don’t know that for a long time, you were a single-person business and now you’re a big business.

And the fact that you can make those business transitions without your customers even realizing it’s going on behind the scenes, that’s an amazing thing. You’ve really kept true to your original vision and you have been successful with that vision. And a lot of founders can’t say that.

Josh: Well, you know, and I think one of the things that allow for that is, because of the origins of BiggerPockets being a place where it wasn’t about gurus, it wasn’t—for a minute there, at the very beginning, personality—I mean, I was the face of BP forever, right? We realized that was a risk. I didn’t want to just be the face. I wanted other faces. And then Brandon became the face. And he and I were concurrent—he’s still a face, the face, but you’re a face. We want this business to be personality-proof.

We want this business to be Google-proof. We want this business to be recession-proof. We’re trying to build a business that has legs. So when all this happened, it’s not about me. I’m not like hey, hey, hey—this is happening. We put out a release and let it go. I mean, the business doesn’t change. Who we are doesn’t change. We are the exact same company. We just have different ownership. Same management, but different ownership and pretty damn similar philosophy on where we want it to go. So why should anything change?

Now, that’s a successful transition, I believe. Many businesses where things could have ended—and I think there’s a lot of reasons that can happen but I’m grateful that in our case, we managed to really do it pretty seamlessly.

J: So what’s next for you?

Josh: Oh, man. Well, I’d say the first bunch of months were really transition months, working with the team on things. I’ve really been able to, I’d say over the last couple, to finally maybe take a breath. I still don’t think I’m necessarily there. In fact, we just got back from Hawaii. I went and visited Brandon, which was fun, the whole family. And I think I had the first moment, I mean, probably in decades where I just sat back, took a breath, and was like whoa. I mean, I truly—I would say maybe even in the last week alone, I’m not fully there but I am probably as calm as I’ve been in probably 20-30 years.

J: Well, they say, you should take a week’s vacation for every two decades you work.

Josh: I’m getting there. I’m getting there.

J: C'est génial. D'accord. C'était génial. Honey, do you have anything else?

Carol: Just thank you. Merci pour le partage. Thank you for being so open and it’s so funny that you recognize that you’re more calm than you’ve been in 20 years, because I can feel that from you. You’ve just got this air of, I’ve got this. I’m like sitting back, I’m watching the joy. I’m enjoying the hard work that I’ve put in and it’s kind of ‘me’ time. Your energy has changed. Your energy was great before but you’ve just got a different, more calm and confident energy. C’est génial. Really nice.

Josh: And Jay, you did ask what’s kind of next. I mean, beyond just the relaxation and trying to figure out happiness, I think one of the things that I’m struggling right now, which I think a lot of people—it’s crazy. Since I’ve started thinking about this, it’s game-changing.

So last year, because of everything, I started thinking about happiness. It’s like, what is happiness? What does it mean to be happy? I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about it. I think I’m getting closer to that but also think about, what I like doing. And I’ve been asking my friends, hey, what do you like doing? And what’s funny is, most of them don’t remember.

Carol: You forget. You get caught up in your day-to-day.

Josh: 30-40, you’ve got kids or whatever, what brings you joy? We all stop thinking about that. Not everybody but a majority of people stop thinking about it. So I want to challenge anyone listening, take a few minutes and think about it and if you don’t know the answer, you better figure it out because I’m sitting here sadly, and I’m trying to figure it out. I know skiing brings me joy, my kids bring me joy. But like, what do I want to do? I just bought a guitar. It’s like, hey, I’ve always wanted to play guitar. So I’ve been teaching myself guitar. That’s pretty fun, actually.

Carol: C'est génial.

Josh: You know, I’m looking at potentially launching a podcast of my own at some point. We’ll see. I’m thinking about it, trying to put it together. I’m looking to potentially advise non-real estate startups. I think I can use a little break from the space for a while. So look to do some advising of startup businesses. That’s kind of exciting for me, just the premise of doing that. You and I, Jay, have talked about that. I love that idea. And I’m also potentially—I’m looking at diving back in, because I took a break for so long, from real estate itself, to focus on BiggerPockets. I’m potentially looking to kind of dive back into my own investments.

J: If you’re ever looking for some real estate investing resources, I can recommend a few.

Carol: Ouais. I think we may have an idea on where to find some people who just might be more than happy to help you out. So all kinds of exciting possibilities ahead.

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Carol: So now, Josh, we would like to have you be the answerer of our first edition of what we are calling Four More. This is our version of the Famous Four questions that we ask every guest every week, okay?

J: Okay, question number one of the Four More. Josh, what was your worst job ever and what lessons did you take from it?

Josh: Worst job ever—there’s two that come up. So worst job ever was either I worked at a bagel shop. I did not last a day. I had to go between the freezer and the scalding temperatures of the summer, in and out, and like my body wanted to collapse after an hour. I was like, I can’t do this. I’m done.

Or, while living in Los Angeles and needing some cash—

J: This is going to be good.

Josh: I was a doorman, scrawny old me, for a Church of Scientology meeting. And there happened to be—I was just helping my buddy out, and that day, there was an earthquake. So I’m like standing at the door and that was the first earthquake I had ever felt.

Carol: At least you were in a doorway.

Josh: The windows, I’m outside of a glass building and things are shaking and like, scared the living bejeezus out of me and I like was on the ground and everyone else was looking and laughing at me and I’m like, I can’t do this, I’m out of here. So how about that?

Carol: That’s an awesome answer. So I want to ask, what is the defining moment where you realized you had the entrepreneurial itch?

Josh: I’d say there were two things. I didn’t realize it but when I was like 10 years old in my mom’s first shop and I was telling her how to run the business, it might have been the first inkling that I was going to be an entrepreneur. Or just an asshole.

Carol: We’ll go with option number one.

Josh: But you know, I would say, I really think I realized it at every job that I always had. I was never happy just doing my job. I always wanted to give input to the people who were bossing me around, my managers, and tell them how they can better improve the things that they were supposed to be doing as well. And I realized, I’m going to have a hard time working for somebody for the rest of my life. I probably need to work for myself.

Carol: Excellent.

J: Okay, this one goes back to my biggest pet peeve. There’s a whole lot of bad advice in business. We all hear bad advice all the time. What’s the worst piece of advice you’ve ever either been given or you’ve heard, and how would you correct that if you were to give that advice?

Josh: Oh, man. That’s a really long list. I would say, it’s all about the hustle. It’s all about the grind. And don’t get me wrong, I believe hustling and grinding and working your backside off is necessary, but I also believe that what I did was stupid, right? So I took the hustle grind mentality to the extreme. I didn’t take time off. I didn’t think about myself. I didn’t take care of myself. And that’s a bad thing.

So I would say, there’s balance. And part of the core values of BiggerPockets today are a result of that imbalance. Putting family—somebody at the company, for example, the only time you can get things done in a lot of industries is in the middle of the day. Shops close, things close, right? You have to get your car fixed. Go at 11 o’clock and take care of it and you’ll make it up later.

Like, a lot of companies, you can’t go and get your car fixed until 5 o’clock. But if at 5 o’clock, you’re picking up your kids, you’re dealing with dinner—it’s unreasonable, at least in my mindset. Anyway, I mean, we can do hours and hours and hours of the bad advice that I got or that I’ve heard. But that’s the quickest one that comes to mind.

Carol: That’s a great one. So I have a fourth question. I like to spend money, so my last question is, what’s something that you’ve splurged on? What’s been totally, totally worth it?

Josh: Man. I’m like the anti-splurge. I don’t like to spend money on myself. I don’t mind spending money on my family or other people. I really don’t like to spend money on myself. So, I would say my Jeep. I bought a Jeep after everything went down. I didn’t have a car because the company car was my car. I needed a vehicle. I got this bright orange Jeep I’ve been driving the last couple of days until today, with our pending blizzard, with the top down. It’s been a blast. Yeah, that’s it.

J: That was the Four More. So now I’m going to ask you for more. Where can our listeners find out more about you?

Josh: Find me on Twitter @JRDorkin. That’s probably the best place. I’m on Instagram, Twitter. I’m not on LinkedIn anymore. I may not be on Facebook anymore. We’ll see. I’m on there but barely hanging on. So Twitter is probably the spot. But yeah.

Carol: Do you want to give a shout-out to your book, by any chance?

Josh: Well, can I give a shout-out to my company?

Carol: Absolument.

J: Have we heard of them?

Josh: So I’ve got this company that I own a piece of, it’s called BiggerPockets. It’s amazing. So really quick, for those of you guys who are listening who don’t know what BiggerPockets is, beyond, it’s a community, it’s resources. We’ve got several podcasts, including this one. We’ve got a publishing business. If you want to change your life, if you want to better your financial well-being, not just necessarily through real estate, just in general—check out BiggerPockets.

Listen to The Money Show. Check this show out. The BiggerPockets real estate podcast. Check out some of our—I don’t know where we’re at—16, 17 books on topics from money to real estate. It will definitely change your life. And get involved because there’s amazing people like Jay and Carol and all the various people who give up themselves to try and give back and help other people be successful.

J: And hold up your most recent book. Je vous remercie. And this—

Josh: How to Invest in Real Estate: The Ultimate Beginners’ Guide to Get Started, written by myself and Brandon Turner. It’s pretty much the first book. If you want to buy a book on real estate, this is the first one to pick up. If you want a book on estimating the costs, you buy Jay’s book. If you want to buy a book on flipping houses, you buy Jay’s book. We’ve got rental property. We’ve got books on every topic in real estate. Check out BiggerPockets..com/store if you want to check it out.

Otherwise, you guys, I’m so excited for you. This is going to be a lot of fun. You guys are amazing and this was a great experience.

Carol: You are amazing. Thank you so much, Josh. You story is beyond phenomenal and I’ve enjoyed every last second. Merci beaucoup.

Josh: Thank you guys.

J: Josh, this was fantastic. We are so glad that your daughter is on the road to recovery and that you have found new purpose since then. And we wish you good luck with everything you do in the future. I hope you’ll come back on Show 500 and give us a recap.

Josh: Oh, man. When I’m even grayer than I am today, sure.

J: Thanks so much, Josh.

Carol: Thanks so much, Josh. À bientôt.

J: Au revoir.

Josh: Au revoir.

J: Wow, what a great episode. I think a lot of us are familiar with BiggerPockets as a real estate investing website but I think very few of us think about what went into building a company like BiggerPockets. And it’s amazing thinking back, Josh started this company 15 years ago. It took him years, nearly a decade to start getting traction. And just to see what he’s built in the last few years or how he’s scaled in the last few years is just amazing. How did you think about this episode, Carol?

Carol: I thought it was just awesome and I especially thought it was so powerful how he really broke it down to a very personal level and shared so much with us. And talked about the things that he had to do in taking a step back, realizing he wasn’t happy. Admitting those things that are really hard to admit. And just finding a way to move forward and grow the business to what it is today. Just really powerful all around.

J: Absolument. I don’t think I was expecting the personal story in there and I think it was pretty touching and great to hear everything is going well for Josh and his family.

Okay, guys. Well, that wraps up this episode but before you go, we want you to be a guest on this show. And if you want to be a guest on the BiggerPockets Business podcast, here’s what you’re going to need to do. I want you to go to BiggerPockets.com/BizGuest. That’s BiggerPockets.com/BizGuest. And fill out the form there.

Carol: Okay, everybody. Remember to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode, got it? Subscribe right now.

J: Thank you everybody for listening. We are Carol and Jay.

Carol: Now, go share some of your expertise today.